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<gmaxwell>
_aj_: hm. Why does what miners doing matter? users signaling or not is a wallet distinguisher even if the signaling is completely moot.
<gmaxwell>
For what miners are doing you could say that the requiring opt-in to replace could just go away.
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<phantomcircuit>
gmaxwell: wouldn't the people who already have it set hard on already be fingerprinted?
<gmaxwell>
my comments are about the wallet making transactions, it's on by default for a few years now (unless I'm confused!)
<phantomcircuit>
gmaxwell: so it's about fingerprinting users who have rbf for the wallet manually enabled?
<phantomcircuit>
i dont get it
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<gmaxwell>
phantomcircuit: a PR was recently merged that enables RBF at all times for all transactions, espeically given that ~all miners are already doing that, there is no need to opt-in to rbf anymore. So the optin flag is just an unnecessary wallet distinguisher.
<gmaxwell>
since it doesn't matter one could say that all wallets should just opt in (I think opt-in is the majority now). Or wallets should stop. I think the latter works a bit better because the wallets that currently opt in are more likely to actually update their behavior.
<gmaxwell>
And my suggestion/question was that if you do stop, might it be better to get all that stop to stop at once.
<_aj_>
seems kind of plausible
<gmaxwell>
also works because there is no particular urgency in changing the behavior, I think-- so it could be scheduled a year out or something.
<phantomcircuit>
gmaxwell: oh hmm yeah i see that does kinda make sense
<phantomcircuit>
though maybe it's better to wait and see how fast nodes are actually updated?
<gmaxwell>
if you're an outbound only node, behind 8 nodes not doing fullrbf, and try to do a replacement without having used optin, it won't work.
<gmaxwell>
but that requires you to have all 8 peers .... which means that 57% of listeners need to not do the replacement for the probablity of finding yourself in that state is just 1%. And if you are simply restarting will probably fix it.
<gmaxwell>
so I don't think there is too much reason for uptake worry.
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<bitcoin-git>
[bitcoin] glozow opened pull request #30594: docs: update documentation for new mempoolfullrbf default (master...2024-07-fullrbf-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30594
<glozow>
instagibbs: re "Leaving as draft since there is plenty of other things people should be working on for 28.0 freeze." in #30592, are you suggesting not doing this in 28.0?
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<instagibbs>
glozow I don't think it's an important change to make for 28.0, personally? Maybe mark the option as deprecated for a cycle?
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<glozow>
instagibbs: I'm thinking that, if we came to the conclusion that mempoolfullrbf=0 is bad enough to change the default, then logically it's also bad enough to at least warn users that try to set it?
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<glozow>
If we think it'd be a footgun then we shouldn't provide it as an option imo? Or do we not think it's not that bad?
<instagibbs>
yeah hence the deprecation warning? that make sense?
<glozow>
warning sounds good
<sipa>
glozow: ignoring whether or not the option makes sense, i think logistically it's wrong to remove an option without deprecation cycle... there may be software/packaging relying on even just the option existing
<instagibbs>
not everything can be supported like this, but this has essentially 0 cost
<glozow>
I think I'm just trying to say that the deprecation should start in 28.0
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<BlueMatt[m]>
has anyone in bitcoin core land ever gotten driller or fuzzolic or some other concolic execution tool working?
<instagibbs>
glozow yes, I agree. I don't know the process for deprecating a startup arg :)
<Murch[m]>
gmaxwell: The coordinated switch in signaling sounds interesting, but I’m not sure a rolling update is that harmful. Especially for those that continue signaling after the update, everyone else switching at the same time might leave them sticking out even more
<Murch[m]>
glozow, instagibbs: I think removing the option completely may dissuade some users from upgrading, it might be better to only update the default and deprecate this release
<Murch[m]>
gmaxwell: If we are worried about full-rbf transactions propagating well by the time the opt-in signaling is turned off by default, maybe we should try to connect to at least one peer whose version is at least v28?
<instagibbs>
I don't see the payoff in trying to solve wallet behavior switching now, and by the time it's decided I suspect propagation will be pretty trivial?
<instagibbs>
I guess I'm saying, this is all post-28.0 talk in my mind
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<sipa>
Murch[m], gmaxwell: it looks (https://txstats.com/d/000000020/replace-by-fee) like close to or over a majority of transactions signal opt-in RBF; it seems like defaulting to on is a better shelling point than trying to default to off?
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<dergoegge>
BlueMatt: I've played around with symcc
<dergoegge>
i think i also tried fuzzolic but don't remember if I actually got it working
<gmaxwell>
sipa: yeah I mentioned above that I thought it was a majority. The answer I have to that is that it's probably easier to get the ones who've turned it on to turn it off than it is to get the ones that still don't have it on to turn it on?
<sipa>
gmaxwell: hmm, good question
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<Murch[m]>
sipa: Everyone settling on not signaling for a previously enforced optional feature seems a bit cleaner than everyone settling on signaling for a no-longer enforced feature.
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<sipa>
Murch[m]: agreed there
<gmaxwell>
+1
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<bitcoin-git>
[bitcoin] fjahr opened pull request #30598: assumeutxo: Drop block height from metadata (master...2024-08-au-drop-height) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30598
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